Rachel and Jessica discuss the new focus on mental health and connection within the legal industry. Deb Knupp from GrowthPlay joins with her expertise and shares how GrowthPlay encourages law firms to get away from transactional practices and instead work toward positive talent and client experiences. 

We've included a transcript of our conversation below, transcribed by artificial intelligence. The transcript has been lightly edited for style, clarity, and readability.

INTRO  00:02

Hello, and welcome to Legal News Reach, the official podcast for The National Law Review. Stay tuned for a discussion on the latest trends in legal marketing, SEO, law firm best practices and more.

Rachel  00:15

I'm Rachel.

Jessica  00:17

And I'm Jessica. And we're the Co-hosts for The National Law Review's Legal News Reach podcast.

Rachel  00:23

In this episode, we're excited to talk to Deb Knupp, Managing Director for GrowthPlay. Deb, would you like to introduce yourself?

Deb Knupp  00:28

Well, I would. And thank you all so much for having me. And I have the good fortune of working in a business growth play. And we are a consulting firm that really uses a research and data driven approach to help our clients accelerate revenue, really amplify and elevate talent, and do so all in the context of creating exceptional client experiences. And so I principally work with law firms, we've we've served more than 50% of the am law 200. And we're coming upon our 400 Law Firm engagement over the last 20 years. So it's been a great ride, and what an honor it is to get to be with you guys today.

Rachel  01:11

Well, it's an honor for you to join us. I'm sure all that expertise will be really useful to our listeners here. So one of the main focuses we wanted to really dial in on here are a lot of the opportunities created by the pandemic and where the legal industry goes from here. I think a lot of times people talk about the challenges of COVID-19. I think less often we talk about, you know, sort of the great opportunities that this pandemic created for the industry. So what do you think will be the greatest lessons learned that could propel the legal industry forward into the best version of itself,

Deb Knupp  01:43

You've heard, sometimes people say, you know, let's not waste a good pandemic, and not get the lessons that we want to learn. And I think that the experience in the legal industry, and really what occurred in March of 2020, like it was across the world really required a certain level of crisis response, and how to navigate and abate fear, and then very quickly engage in what I think will be a pandemic word for the ages pivot to an approach that really allows business to continue and clients to be served. And when you look at some of the more significant things that I think law firms gained or are gaining, having responding to the pandemic is first, I think we obliterated the myth that you have to practice law only in the confines of bricks and mortar. I think that the the idea of having remote work or having a capacity to perform billable work at a quality level, at a responsiveness level, I think for many years pre pandemic, it was often assumed that the quality and the value is going to be achieved when it was done live and in the context of a building. And what I love now is that we have not only seen the continuity of excellence, and responsiveness and value continue to be generated over the last 20 months, I think there's a lot of evidence to support that maybe we've seen an improvement in quality and responsiveness and engagement with clients. So I think in many respects, I think we've added another dimension into professional services and billable work delivery, that has the capacity to continue to drive even more value for clients and be incredibly valuable to talent. I think the second thing that the pandemic has certainly taught us is how critical it is to have systems for collaboration and communication. Again, if you look at the light switch, you know, immediately there was a grand exposure of how on networks, many organizations were in keeping connections with both internal relationships and client connectedness. And so again, I think that the heavy investments that were both necessary to remain in business and now I think are vital tools for ongoing connectedness and collaboration, I think we're going to see a real benefit for the comfort and how we connect with clients. And even looking at us right now, as we're connecting on a platform, you know, zoom and other virtual and web based platforms, I think there's a lot of value in building greater depth of intimacy and relationships, greater access, for communication and connectedness. And I think the facilitation of utilizing platforms. Modernizing, if you will, the practice of law through the utility of technology, I think we got a grand, you know, drinking from a firehose kind of moment, to sort of prove that concept. I think the last thing and I think this is an important thing for us to continue to pay attention to, is there's never been a place in time, at least in my lifetime, where I've seen the playing field absolutely levelled when it comes to the integration of work, and a person's personal life and how we were all universally disrupted. In this space where our human connectedness and the desires and wants and needs for human flourishing, we really saw a reset,

Rachel  05:10

As you sort of alluded to, many law firms have done pretty well. And they perform well financially this past year. So what do you think will be the most important growth priorities for firms as well as sustain that growth long term?

Deb Knupp  05:24

Well, I think first and foremost, to sustain growth is not to believe that a blip is, is going to be consistent. If you've seen an inflection in your practice or growth in your practice, and just making the assumption that the volume of work the demand for work, sometimes what we see in times of prosperity is you are tempted to put a lot of investment in things because you anticipate that that pipeline in that workflow is going to have continuity, I think it's really important to discern what financial growth have you experienced based on pent up demand, that will have a shelf life that will sort of run a course, and then re establish sort of what a new normal level of demand and interests are, and where we have seen innovation drive new lines of revenue, new ways to engage with clients in productive billable work, and really pour your attention into those kinds of services. As a good example, I think law firms have certainly gotten a lot more creative, on how to think about the advisory part or the counseling aspect of the practice of law versus maybe the transactional or dispute related parts of practice of law. So I think our ability to widen the purview of the advisory services, quality Council, and deliverables for which clients are delighted to invest in pay, I think we're going to see a real opportunity for that kind of prioritization.

Rachel  06:50

So how are firms paying attention to the intersection of client experience and talent experience? And who's driving that growth?

Deb Knupp  06:57

Well, I think we can say confidently, that those two things are inextricably linked, right. There's no win, particularly in professional services. And more specifically, within a law firm, I think what we have absolutely gleaned certainly in the last 20 months, but as we even look beyond is that you cannot give away what you don't possess. And I think that when we look at, if you've got an engaged workforce, if you've got talent, that loves the work that feels meaning and purpose in their work, they feel like they're a part of something where their identity into something greater than their own individual practice or own individual contribution. If you've got a workforce that is really tuned in to that experience, it absolutely allows you to give a much higher, more high value, a premium way of really elevating what it feels like to be a client. When you are a person who feels invested in you have greater abundance to feel a capacity to invest in others. And so when you look at the intersection of the great resignation, you look at that talent shortages that are certainly come into play. When you look at some of the trend data around associate recruiting and retention, I think it's incredibly important that law firms continue to see that that has as much to do with billable work and client development and business development, as you may be putting in trying to engage clients and invest in clients and, and do work for clients. And so I think there's a great level of intersection. And I think law firms that are that are faring really well and will continue to stay in growth are putting as much attention in the talent experience. As we might have seen historically, pre pandemic, a lot of firms really investing what it means to create an unparalleled client experience. So I think these two things are very synonymous and going hand in hand. And I suspect that firms that win in the future will continue to see them as not disparate, but absolutely interdependent as we look ahead.

Jessica  08:58

That's so great that you mentioned putting that extra energy and work into your clients. And I think that also is going to translate to your workers. Of course, a lot of firms right now are doing the diversity, equity, inclusion or DEI initiatives. They're just trying to grow their practice to be better and connect with their clients in that way. So what are you seeing as far as DEI? What's working well, what's not working? I'd like to get your perspective on that.

Deb Knupp  09:24

I'll start with just maybe some of the more daunting statistics, I think we have to really pay attention to some of the larger trend lines when you look at the research and data that comes out of, you know, reputable institutions that are looking at, you know, minority corporate counsel and how we're seeing, you know, business demand and how firms are faring in responding to client or outside counsel, inside in house counsel, looking for their outside counsel to really match and meet diversity expectations. We have not yet fully seen a connectedness play itself out where numbers are increasing retentions increasing the mix of diverse counsel and serving and meeting client demands. We have not seen the lift in performance as of yet. And so the question really becomes, well, why not? Like what what's missing here? I saw a recent statistic HBr consulting, does an annual law department survey. And as they look at all of the criteria, that out that in house law departments are looking for from their outside counsel, the single biggest jump in prioritization that they saw from their 2020 survey was a 14% increase in dei being a priority for selection and retention of preferred counsel. So demand is there. In house law departments, clients are saying, we want more diversity, equity inclusion, intersections with our firms, we want that and to see it at a double digit of growth and prioritization, I think that if you're if you're an outside counsel or private practice, we need to pay attention to this. At the same time, how we show up, though, in response to that, I think is where the innovation, ingenuity and creativity really have to come into play. And so when I think about firms that are doing really well, number one, I think they're changing the question. The question that underscores a lot of dei initiatives right now is how do we get more women and lawyers of color to equity partnership, and that has been the brass ring of standards. When we think about retention, when we think about growth, it is all been predicated on, we know we're being successful when we have more women, more lawyers of color in the equity partnership ranks or in the leadership ranks of a particular law firm. And while that is certainly a key indicator of success, if your firm is a destination firm, where lawyers of color and women and and LGBTQ attorneys can thrive. And that's not the only metric. And in some cases, the desirability of being an equity partner in a law firm may not be the only destination that you might see your diverse talent wanting to move towards. So firms I think are doing well are widening the question, which is to say, what are all the paths of participation that would be desirable to retain the best and brightest diverse talent? What would have to be true about our firm and making those paths available? One path is ownership equity partnership. And are there other pads? Are there other designs of work structure, profile roles, structure compensation structures, that would really allow people who would be considered under the umbrella of diversity for them to want to work, not just based on one singular metric? And I think if we can begin to widen the question to say, What would have to be true about our firm, we're diverse talent wants to do their best work, I think you're gonna see a lot more innovation, a lot more adjustments in role design, I think our whole construct of associates and income partners and equity partnership and counsel, I think we're going to see a shuffling of new jobs to emerge. I think what we think of is full time and flex time, I think we're gonna see some radical transformations of that, I think how people get compensated, what it means to, you know, be available for various aspects of client service. I'm already starting to see firms start to address that. And I think those are incredibly positive things. I think the last thing that I'd say, again, where there's still need, but I can tell you that firms are starting to invest in it, I think, a big reason why we're seeing so much exit and again, pandemic is certainly revealed, you know, a big part of the great resignation has disproportionately impacted women. And I think when you look at the division of labor, and the realities of what it looks like to be a woman at work, who also is a parent or is caring for elderly parents or has a senior parent level of dependent care, we have seen this the statistics are highlighting is there is disparity, there is a significant amount of difference. And so I believe that law firms are really any organizations who can look at the data and say we acknowledge the data, and then design for things where again, not withstanding workforce availability or workforce, job designing in order to really meet the demand. So that resignation is not the only option. I think firms are going to have to start looking at different ways that we can attract and retain on a season of life basis, where people can move in and out of work velocity based on the other demands for time, whether that's child care, elder care, but I think there's also other demands on time, you know, based on academic interest or a desire to step away and maybe work in house be in business for a year or two and then returned to private practice. I think this will not only be useful across the entire workforce, regardless of diversity, I do think this is going to have a unique positive benefit. When we apply this in spaces where we're navigating the retention and growth of individuals who would be considered diverse.

Jessica  15:19

I'm so glad you mentioned all of that, because so much of this labor shortage... I mean, I think a lot of these issues we're covering today is why this is happening, you know, firms are finally -and I would actually argue any workplace- is finally spending that extra time if they can to put, you know, DEI initiatives as part of their brand, or as part of their firm skeleton, basically, their foundation, and even just taking care of employees differently. I mean, I think for so long companies weren't really thinking about how can we take care of our employees mental health or, you know, work-life balance, and now that's such a big focus. And I think it's for the better in, especially in the legal industry? What are you seeing law firms do in their culture that can benefit or has benefited health and mental health in the workplace.

Deb Knupp  16:12

So first, when it comes to the great work that law firms are doing, I want to I want to highlight something that's so important. In fact, there was a great research statistic that BTi consulting published is that the the large percentage of clients that have absolutely no idea what your law firm is doing in this space of Dei, and also in the space of employee health and well being. And so I think it's critical to understand that when if you are a firm that is leaning into these things, and doing a lot to invest, and try to sort and to figure out and to and to be creative and having the freedom to redesign and re reimagine. I think it's really important that where you were doing that not only making that known to your clients, certainly from a promotion and reputation building, I think it's also really important to invite your clients into that conversation. I can say that right now, some of the best exchanges that I'm watching is that law firms aren't trying to design these responses in a vacuum, but they are opening it up to be resourcing benchmarks and best practices from their their clients and other companies and other industries. So that we don't have to go it alone. So let me just start there by responding and saying, Look, this is a place where there's a lot of hard stuff going on. So your ability to not make it visible to your clients and also to invite others in. That's that's PERS response. More specifically, though, just on the on the construct of the mental health. So when you think about the shadow pandemic, and some of the things that experts are citing, and this is really at the risk of being my namesake of Debbie downer, I'm going to tell you that we need to wake up to this, because I don't know that we're talking about this enough, is that many mental health experts are suggesting that the cost and consequence for depression, anxiety, addiction, suicide, that the cost and consequence will be far greater and loss of life, and loss of productivity that we will see the crisis peak in 2024, that there is predictions that more people may lose their lives related to trauma coming out of the pandemic than the people who actually died from COVID-19. Now, if that doesn't start to get our attention, we got to tile in and say, look, it's like a tsunami that's looming out there. And the question is, what are we doing right now? Because even if our own cultures, our own people aren't a part of that statistic, where they aren't struggling with trauma with mental health conditions with suicide, the probability that they have a plus one relationship in their life is almost assured that if it is not happening to your talent who works at your firm, I want you to examine how many of them are parents or aunts or nephew or aunts or uncles or grandparents to children between the ages of 18 to 24. At one point during the pandemic 25% of people aged 18 to 24 25%, one in four, contemplated or acted upon suicide. Think about one in four people between the ages of 18 and 24. How many people work at your law firms or your places of business, that have relationships with people in that age, not the least of which thinking about the impact of those incoming first years, who are just just a little older than this particular demographic. Consider this other difficult statistic. When you look at the rise of eating disorders, and the rise of anxiety and depression in diagnosable mental health conditions. Children between In the ages of 14 and 18, saw 300 to 400% increases in these diagnoses. And that doesn't even take into account all of the other kinds of things that have been looming out there. With regards to social media and the impact of bullying, isolation and various other comparative data that really frightens me and as a parent of three teenage girls, I have to tell you, I'm paying attention to these things. So when a law firm can step back and say, Look, while this may not be happening today, we may not have people right now for whom this is an active issue. If we look ahead to the year 2024, what would we be doing today, in anticipation that this will become a thing for our firm or for our clients, and their plus ones. So my counsel or my recommendation to every managing partner and leader and law firms that I get to work with is to first of all acknowledge that we're not separated from this. And in many respects, given the nature of billable work and the pressures to Bill and to be productive, that in some cases can exasperate these particular issues at a project at a pretty high clip and high calling. So I think that cultures that are going to be doing really well and addressing this are starting to understand that while we guess our EAP, or employee assistance programs, for access to mental health care, is something that is a baseline table stakes of employee benefits or or talent benefits, that's a great place to start. I think that we also have to create more opportunities and access to creating conditions so people know how to be with people in suffering, that we that we master the communication techniques that you often learn in therapies, like the technique of validation, how do you hold space for people while they're suffering? How do you not relegate someone into shame and isolation when they're struggling with alcohol or drug addiction, or they have someone in their life that is, so I think it's not only making sure that we have the care and support leaves of absence opportunities for people to have space and flexibility. I think we also have to create cultures that create the destigmatizing. One of my maybe my most compelling experiences during the pandemic, around this particular issue was a law firm that we work with Will the managing partner, in an effort to address the mental health conditions of the team, he himself created communication and visibility to a lifelong battle and struggle that he had had with depression, anxiety, and suicide, and how he made that visible and how he connected Himself to those sets of conditions as a role model. And as a way of saying, Look, you can look upon himself and say he's the managing partner of a law firm. He's one of the most successful people's people in, in this ecosystem, and yet, his willingness to make visible his own journey, and how he's navigating, and how he continues to create care around this. It's that kind of courage that I think will allow us all to navigate the shadow pandemic with more grace, more compassion, more empathy, and as a result, more lives will be saved.

Jessica  23:08

I think that's such a good thing that that attorney did, because mental health in particular, and you know, even in a regular work place, it's such a silent I guess, the silent visitor, if you will, of people who work it even in a physical office, let alone remote work or hybrid, where you don't even you already don't really hear it or see it. But then you have people working remote, it's harder to reach those people in general. You know, is there a way? What are some specific things firms can do up front to prevent some problems from starting in the first place? Are there any, you know, tactics that specific firm members have used Besides sharing their story? Because that's a very good, I think, connective way to connect with people.

Deb Knupp  23:55

Absolutely. So I think it's so in addition to I think creating systems for visibility and messaging, where courageous people can put a face against things that maybe are stigmatized, I think that that's just as a general sense. Where you have willingness or courageous people who want to be advocates in this space and creating pathways for those stories to be told or those those messages to be shared. I think that that's that's a strong value, and will often fall under the umbrella of sort of firm communications. I think a secondary, as I've already mentioned, is I think taking a fresh look at your benefits programs and really understanding you know, is there parity and access to mental health coverage and and what does that look like with regards to essential priorities in the benefits plane designs, and how you can come alongside folks who may be struggling in getting proper care. In large part because of financial scenarios. I've seen more firms establish what I'd consider most like benevolence related funding such that that people anonymously can or to the firm I'm anonymous, but people can tap into hardship in a way that allows coverage if their benefits plans run out, or if there are not places where that kind of financial reinforcement can be made available. And I think that can be true not only in mental health, but that's also when you're navigating home insecurity, you know, food insecurity, and other conditions. So I think those are certainly places to look. I think, additionally, the advent of new benefits. One of my favorite things that I got exposed to during the pandemic, is an organization called home thrive and they they provide elder care, concierge services for eldercare, I think a growing area of depression and anxiety isn't isn't a person who is aging parents. The isolation, the shame, the struggle, and knowing how to navigate where parent, your child becomes parent, and how do you navigate that there's an entire Benefits Service that brings that kind of elder care, concierge service and really helping provide resources to people like me, who have to navigate caring for an aging parent or an aging loved one. And so I think at looking innovatively and how to do that, we saw a lot of that in the childcare space. So again, I think that additions of things like elder care another arena, I'm also noticing a lot of firms are creating, for lack of another sermon, the construct of resource groups, where people can come together around particular areas of affinity, where they may be navigating particular challenges or struggles. So again, when you look at individuals coming together around affinity, where their struggles with maybe diversity related resource grouping, I think is something that's a little bit more popular and prevalent, certainly has been seen in major corporations, I think law firms are starting to build that into their larger affinity related programming. But I think there's also resource groups when you can bring community together when it's navigating, you know, parenting teenage children, or working with seniors and navigating elder care and how to navigate that, or how you navigate some of the challenges that may come with the stability of marriage or, or family dynamics. I think firms that this understand that we need to be our whole self, to our workplaces. And then we need to really examine how we can create space and safety for people to leverage connectedness and community. In some ways, it makes them even more loyal, more connected to your place of work. Because these kinds of extra things are made available to care for the whole person.

Rachel  27:25

I'm so glad we're talking about mental health today, because I think it's often important to destigmatize it, I think the more people talk about, especially their own struggles, and they're not ashamed to find help, but I feel like it's often like almost an invisible disease. Like if people don't talk about it, then people don't know about it. And they feel alone. And I think talking about struggles and ways that companies can really help their employees think is really helpful. So one of the other topics we wanted to touch on a little bit today was more relationship building. So creating and maintaining relationships, legal industry. So what are some ways that law firms, legal marketers can create authentic relationships with clients?

Deb Knupp  28:04

Well, I like to think of this as a starting point, Rachel is that we got to recognize that there's a very fine line in stalking someone and staying connected to them. And they're really the distinction that we often say is really in the in the zone of how welcomed is the effort to stay connected, how welcomed is it by the receiver, in wanting to be engaged with you as a firm. And so when we look at legal marketing techniques, and how to frame a client centered, or an other centered approach, to having authentic reasons to stay connected, we find really simply that it can fall under a construct that we call it growth, like the three ends. And the three ends are almost failsafe when you think about these three ends from the receivers perspective. So if you think authentic reasons to connect with a client, or potential client or referral source, you need to have one of these three things in place. So in number one, is invitations. A great way to stay connected to your clients is invite them to things that they would find beneficial, inviting them to be a part of activities, conversations, education scenarios, inviting them to things that lift them up, allow them to, to flourish, to be smarter to be stronger in ways that are welcomed. And so if you want to build a relationship with a client and you want to stay in front of them, one you need to understand what are the kinds of things that your clients like to do? What are the kinds of things that they are aspiring to grow and learn, personally and professionally so that when you are orienting the end of invitations, that you have far more readiness to activate the end of an invitation in a way that will increase the odds that not only will it be received, but it will received and will feel like a relationship investment. Think the second end is the end of introduction. There's no better way to really cultivate relationships with your clients and potential clients, other than when you're introducing them to people that they actually want to meet. Now, this the underscoring, is actually want to meet. This is not about ambush introductions, where you decide that two people need to meet and grab coffee or have a conversation. This is though the permission based in of introductions, when you can ask clients, you know, the kinds of people the kinds of service providers the kinds of help that they're looking for, again, professionally, personally, maybe within the law firm, maybe outside and larger professional services, when you can facilitate the ends of introductions, that a client would actually welcome and find valuable in their network, there's a real value and it will feel like a relationship investment. The final end of the three ends is insight or information sharing. And so once again, if you can create an inventory of insights, that allow your clients to be smarter your clients to be lifted your clients to have benchmarks, or you can seek insights, meaning the inquiry of voice of the client research, that exchange of insights and information, again, as long as it's welcomed, and it's on point with something that the receiver would like to receive. When you do that, and you dial in with that kind of sharing or inquiry. Again, it feels like a relationship investment. So I think the answer in any kind of ongoing sustainable relationship investment is to pay attention to the three ends, and making sure again, that they're tailored to the receivers. perception of value.

Rachel  31:33

I wonder if you could also talk about what some of the key like, x-factors are in terms of like legal marketing at law firms.

Deb Knupp 31:40

We know we've talked a little bit already about talent experience and client experience, which are often referred to as sort of CX, which would be an x-factor for client experience when TX or EX is sometimes you see it for employee experience or talent experience. And so I think those are two that we need to be paying attention to. And really, again, at the intersection of how those things are informed, I can tell you that there are a few other x-factors that I think are really important to examine and integrate. When we look at things like brand experience, when you think about what it feels like to be in your ecosystem, on your website, receiving your your press releases, you know, being on your news feeds, and your newsletters, and hearing about the things that you're promoting the accolades, the awards, the causes, the charity things, the pro bono things you're doing. All of those things sort of underpin this construct of a brand experience, where you can not only engage brand experience, for the purposes of getting more recognition, you actually can look at your BX brand experience in giving more inspiration to others. Of course, I would be remissed a growth play, we often look at the RX, which we refer to as the revenue experience, or the sales experiences it might be in recognizing that when you're engaging in your go to market strategies, in the name of business development, that the revenue experience doesn't have to feel like an exercise of trying to strong arm or manipulate somebody to give you something, you actually can have that experience feel like an act of service. And when you design and plan for when you leverage all of your business generating to leave the prospect or that or that referral source in a better space, utilizing the three ends that I mentioned earlier. And investing in that prospect or referral source, the revenue experience not only will allow you to get revenue, it will also allow you to give that value of wisdom in a way that will leave a mark. And finally, when we look at revenue experience, it is about getting revenue, it's about getting the sale, but it's also about giving the deposit of wisdom. So you can look at the interplay of those 4x factors, I think you begin to see brand new avenues and channels that could lead to generating opportunities overall for growth.

Rachel  33:53

How does that then play into some of these, you know, G3 selling strategies that we've spoken about, that legal marketers can focus on? Well, when you look at the construct of getting things, I think I get strategy, which is one of the G's, and clearly is something that needs to be paid attention to. And we've got to always be replenishing our pipeline to look for that net new opportunity to bring the client in. So I get Strategy is a strategy of prospecting, referral, generating, pursuing targeting, engaging until such time as there's billable work. I think that the other two G's or something just to highlight quickly, I think there's also a real strong importance on your growth strategy. A lot of law firms talk about the benefit of cross selling, but yet not always as impactful or effective. So when you think about the strategy of grow, for purposes of cross selling, we need to be looking at that strategy with a keen eye because the cost of sell is considerably lower. And we've got to look at the infrastructure around cross selling or growth of an existing client to make sure we're not falling into the impediments or traps of how do you recognize people are incentivized or create collaboration in a way that's really in service to clients. Think the last few years the guard strategy, this is probably the area that gets most overlooked. And I think the pandemic really brought to life, how important existing clients are, and how important it is to love on your existing clients. And so guard strategies really are all about not taking an existing client for granted. You may have a very large market share or be the law firm, to a particular client and have all of their legal spend. The question though, is what are you doing to protect that? How are you re originating that work? How are you investing in protecting that client relationship and looking for new innovation, new value, and new ways to really build loyalty, so that there's inoculation against competition? Because I can say that when clients shift law firms, it's not usually only because they're unhappy about the legal service, or they're unhappy about the rates, a lot of times they leave, or they look to get new counsel, because they're being ignored, or taken for granted. So G three is about getting, it's about growing, and it's about guarding. And when we can look at the revenue strategies that go with those three things. I think there's real power and lifting many people to contribute positively affect revenue that would come from any one of his three G's.  Excellent. We've had a great conversation today on mental health and well-being in the egal industry. So thank you to Deb Knupp from GrowthPlay for joining us today.

OUTRO  36:32

Thank you for listening to The National Law Review's Legal News Reach podcast. Be sure to follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts for more episodes for the latest legal news. If you're interested in publishing and advertising with us, visit www dot NAT law review.com. We'll be back soon with our next episode.

Rachel Popa and Jessica Scheck contributed to this content.