Meet Susan Francis, the Executive Director of the Maryland Volunteer Lawyers Service (MVLS), a non-profit organization that provides legal help for low-income residents of Maryland in various types of civil matters, including family law, housing issues, tax disputes, estate planning, and criminal record expungement.

Susan and Jon talk about the gap between the civil legal services needed by most people, and the lawyers available to provide those services at a cost people can actually afford. The gap is wide, and attorneys providing pro bono services through organizations like MVLS can make a dent but not close it all the way. So, do we need more lawyers? Or do we need fewer legal rules? Listen in as Susan and Jon debate this issue.

Then, Jon gets garrulous with Susan about her love of the National Park Service. She’s been to over 300 national parks, historical sites, and other locations run by the NPS. And she tells us about her visit to one national park where she crossed paths, quite literally, with a particularly frightening alligator.